Ouch Podcast #63 – January 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

LIZ	Do disabled people need special dating websites of their own? Should blind people be allowed to use a gun? Should people with Cerebral Palsy be allowed to play music on this show? All these questions and more will be answered or at least kicked around a bit in the next 30 minutes. Thank you for downloading us.

[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr]

Hello and welcome to this edition of the podcast, I'm Liz Carr and I don't actually know where Mat is, so you'll have to bear with me, Damon, any... hold on he's coming. 

MAT	Hello, sorry. 

LIZ	Mat!

MAT	Sorry, I'm coming, I'm coming. Sorry listeners. 

LIZ	Where've you been? I had to do the whole front bit on my own. 

MAT	I'm sorry I got... 

LIZ	Where've you been? It had better be good. 

MAT	Look I had a little bit of a situation in the old toilet. 

LIZ	Oh!

MAT	Well I had to go, oh God how can I explain this? 

LIZ	No I'm sorry. 

MAT	No, no it's fine. I had to go and... 

LIZ	Because we couldn't wait.

MAT	... I think the current phrase is download a brown file. 

LIZ	Okay. 

MAT	Have you seen the distance between where the toilet and where the paper is in that loo? 

LIZ	Yeah. 

MAT	You know how it auto flushes when you get up?

LIZ	Yeah. 

MAT	Well I, in order to reach the paper... 

LIZ	You have to get up.

MAT	Oh...

LIZ	Well then tell me because I want to know, I want the visuals, you've got your little arms. 

MAT	The point is I don't use them for that. 

LIZ	How do you wipe?

MAT	Okay. Well oh God I can't believe I'm saying this. 

LIZ	Not with your hands?

MAT	No that's why I don't need to wash my hands afterwards. 

LIZ	You just sort of drag it on the seats. 

MAT	Shall we put it this way my clench technique is particularly good as is my release which is why it's important to always eat plenty of olive oil. 

LIZ	You've got very short arms so you...

MAT	They're listening, Liz, I don't know whether you've... 

LIZ	Okay. 

MAT	I don't go around wondering whether your PA does it for you.

LIZ	Yes you do!

MAT	... or...

LIZ	We all do. I defy you that you don't think I wonder what she does or what does she do when her and her PA go in there, what does she touch and what doesn't... I'm sure, aren't we all fascinated by how we go to the loo, how we have sex, how we eat - we are we can't say it but we are. 

MAT	We are, listeners, it's true. 

LIZ	Don't you want to watch blind people eat and go do they go three o'clock, six o'clock, peas at nine?

MAT	I have often wondered about our own dear Damon Rose, our blind producer, who's married to a blind woman...

LIZ	Exactly. 

MAT	... what the ruddy heck do they do at dinner time. Does the dog chop up the carrots? 

LIZ	I don't know. 

MAT	What? I don't know. 

LIZ	And we've not been invited. 

MAT	I know. 

LIZ	We've not been invited round for tea.

MAT	Here it is, listeners, most of you will be disabled or friends of we're just going to say it like it is because I know it's true, Liz, you are right I do wonder about things about you and a lot of my other disabled friends. But it's questions that I can't ask. 

LIZ	I feel really liberated. I was angry at you, I'll be honest, because you weren't here at the start of the show I was very angry like, "Okay... 

MAT	I had a real poo moment in there, so you know.

LIZ	So how do... 

MAT	Oh okay. When it doesn't self flush when I rise up off the bowl, unlike the one in there, and I can actually reach the toilet paper, unlike the one in there, I put a length of toilet paper on... well what would you do? 

LIZ	I have never... I'm thinking you must have some kind of gadget ...

MAT	Well I don't have... 

LIZ	... that you carry round in that... because Mat wears like this, consider his little arms he wears like a little specially made waistcoat that he thinks it's all cool because it's leather, and it is it looks good, he looks like he's kind of a sheriff, or gangster. 

MAT	Without a bottom wiping object in its pocket though Liz. 

LIZ	Well I'm figuring that in your little holster thing you've got a whole load of little gadgets, you're a bit like Inspector Gadget you press a button and it... 

MAT	And the bottom wiper comes out.

LIZ	That's what I think happens. 

MAT	No nothing wipes this royal bottom except this royal foot. And if it's in a wee stained public lavatory after having completely papered the bowl... 

LIZ	You take you shoe off first? 

MAT	Well of course you do, you don't want to rub street dirt into your anus do you? 

LIZ	Because then, as you say, if it's a nasty toilet you've got to take your shoes... because surely to take your shoes off is a big deal as well. 

MAT	Well when you're a thalidomide on the toilet which self flushes when you get off it yes isn't it? 

LIZ	It takes half an hour... 

MAT	Can we get off... can we move on please?

LIZ	Okay. I'm just... 

MAT	It's an interesting point but can we move away from me and the toilet?

LIZ	Yeah, no. You know what I remember when I was 19 - because I went to mainstream school - and at uni there were only a handful of crips okay but that was my first, "Oh my God there's all the disabled people" and starting to work out that I was a disabled person and felt okay about it but really wondering okay. And I met a disabled woman on a training course, it was like an assertiveness course and I couldn't wait, we had a weekend together, and all the questions I had for her were about "So are you married? Have you had sex? How do you do it? How do you live on your own? How do you do a job? Do you have PAs?" They were absolutely the nitty gritty, "How do you wipe your bum?" I mean they really were we're not being coarse for coarse sake it's like of course we're fascinated because who teaches you that and she had a very similar impairment to me and so with  the same limitations. 

MAT	But we should know better because when I'm approached, because I have been asked this in like pubs, supermarkets, post offices, "Excuse me mate, hope you don't mind me asking, but how do you wipe your...?" Or "How do you..." the other one that begins with W and I'm like, you know, you're like, "Get out"... 

LIZ	Absolutely. 

MAT	So I mean but we actually want to know just as much as they do. 

LIZ	That's the problem. I feel it's sort of like a guilty little secret is that I'm fascinated by people, how people do things, and some of it's just interesting because I'm just nosey. And other stuff is like because you've got little arms or limited reach and I wonder how you do it because this is how I... it's that human condition how do we do things.

MAT	The number one question from male wheelchair user none of know if his penis works.

LIZ	Yeah. 

MAT	And I don't like saying the P word unnecessarily but I'm just saying, frankly it doesn't matter either way, but people obsess about that with wheelchair using men don't they?

LIZ	No they do and that's... 

MAT	"Does it work, does it all work down there, is everything okay?"

LIZ	I guess it's because we don't see it, we don't see that many of each other and if we do how often is that person... you know, you might see other disabled people but do they have a similar impairment as you. 

MAT	My lot are okay, the thalidomide lot, because we all basically have got the same body and so do do a lot of things the same and we swap tips and what have you in our little group. 

LIZ	So you have forums and you have you know or an AGM or a group or whatever?

MAT	"Oh do you not get a self flusher" says my friend Daphne. "No" I say "I'm still using the foot method" "Oh how antiquated" she replies. 

LIZ	He's a footer, he's a brown footer. 

MAT	Hey everyone we've got a brown foot here. 

LIZ	One of the old school. I just need to say that at this point...

MAT	And you know... go on what do you need to say at this point?

LIZ	... that the producer's head is in his hands going, "Why do I let them pick their own topics of discussion, why, why?"

MAT	Our other presenters, yeah, little Simon Minty? 

LIZ	Yeah. But to be honest what's great is because I've got quite a nice accessible flat is that people often stay at mine because to find a... to pay London prices and "No, no, no come and stay at mine" spare room that's great, you get to see how they live - you do. 

MAT	Have you installed the secret cameras?

LIZ	Oh man I've had little people running in and out the house. I had Tanya Leigh staying at mine over Christmas, it was great. Dressed her up as an elf, it was lovely. And this little stick, she's got like a stick thing that looks like one of those things that measures pasta, how much spaghetti you should have. I have no idea what goes in those six holes of differing size. And it has a little hook... no I'm not even being rude I just don't know. And step stools, and they've got folding step stools, little people carry step stools, gripper sticks. How many gripper stick designs do you think there are - millions, millions. 

MAT	I'm waiting for them to invent is the flipper gripper stick. Because most gripper sticks you have a thumb with which to grip and I have none of the thumb, so where's the flipper gripper stick? That sounds like a poem. 

LIZ	But you know a lot of people don't have that thumb strength. 

MAT	And you wonder how do they play a PSI - with their feet?

LIZ	It is. 

MAT	And that's impractical. 

LIZ	I love it, I absolutely love it.

MAT	Top thing that you know that you shouldn't wonder about one of your friends, but notwithstanding do, what is it Liz?

LIZ	Oh man.

MAT	I'm going to try and think of mine.

LIZ	You've really put me on the spot. Do you know what I wonder actually, what I do wonder, it's not about anyone specific, I wonder how other people utilise their PAs I don't mean in a rude way, I think... 

MAT	You mean how far do they go? 

LIZ	No I absolutely mean... so I have a way that I know I need my PAs to come in and give me... I can't reach below my waist, so I need them to come in, give me a hand to pull everything down and whatever. Do other people have a different approach? Or I can't reach to wipe I don't have a little gadget and I have a way because you just do. If you were doing it yourself you'd have a way that you'd do it. 

MAT	"Front to back" I said.

LIZ	It is it's more hygienic. 

MAT	Well we know that. 

LIZ	You know, again head in the hands, head in the hands. And so I do I have a genuine interest in how other people do things because you think there might be a better way of being assisted to be dressed or go to the loo, I'm sure this works for me but I've had to work it out over the years, the hard way. And maybe if we did feel free enough to talk about some of these things you could learn.

MAT	Funnily enough that happened recently with me and some young people that we've joined with the Thalidomide Society we've got something called TAR Syndrome where they basically look like flids, and they're 19. And we're all collectively thinking, "Oh look at them, they don't know yet, we can teach them. And we can cut ten years of struggle" 

LIZ	[Singing] They are the world. 

MAT	We can cut ten years of their struggle out by saying, "No, no, no just use your foot" or whatever.

LIZ	Absolutely. A whole new generation of brown footers - how exciting. 

[Jingle: It may be all like cool and on Facebook and stuff, well while you're there you can go and find our fan page and join it. Tell us if you like the show, talk to other listeners and whatever. Just search for Ouch BBC and you'll find us.]

MAT	He's looking cool, he ain't no fool it's Rob Crossan in the studio again. Hiya Rob. 

ROB	Hello. What a welcome. 

LIZ	Of course. 

ROB	That was amazing. 

LIZ	We always give our newshound that welcome. 

ROB	What was it - he's looking cool and he's not old school, what was it you said? 

MAT	That's better than mine. Forget mine. 

ROB	Okay right, "He's looking cool and he's not old school." 

LIZ	Well you are, you're looking good. Rob, your first story, 'Blind people are allowed to kill animals again'?

ROB	Yes thank goodness eh? Something we were all getting a little bit worried about. 

LIZ	We were. 

ROB	This is from the ((0:11:03.4?)) Times in Louisiana. New laser technology is enabling people to shoot deer, should they wish to. Though previously when blind people wanted to go shooting' why would a blind person want to go shooting - we can talk about this in a moment. But anyway they basically had to have a friend with them who would manually align the gun with the target and then the blind person would have to guess - is that about right, will the deer drop dead if I shoot it from here? And then the sighted person would tell them. Now this laser technology means that again they have to have the sighted person with them, but the laser technology makes it a hell of a lot more accurate. So basically blind people are going to be killing more stuff in the deep south from now on. A Bill was rushed through Louisiana state legislation... 

LIZ	Rushed through. 

ROB	Rushed through and there was an appeal by a fella called Walter Hill who's a completely blind campaigner, him and his wife, so now it means that blind people get to use lasers therefore are going to be a lot more accurate and a lot better at killing deer.

LIZ	So it'll be like a red dot or whatever.

ROB	It'll be the little red dot on the side of the poor helpless beast. 

MAT	Well on the one hand having witnessed the disabled bow hunters of America once failed to get the clean kill and shoot the poor animals in the gut and watch the protracted death that happened, we all want a clean kill, for the laser to be on the heart of the stag. But on the other hand, eh - why do they want to do that? 

ROB	I can't really see the satisfaction, I'm not completely blind, but visually impaired I was in Namibia about ten years ago, I went on a friend of mine's uncle's farm and jackals - big pest, big pest to farmers apparently - so he let me shoot a jackal. I tried there was one probably about as far away as I am from you, maybe about three foot, and even then it was a poor shot. 

MAT	Where was the laser technology when you needed it? 

ROB	There was no laser technology. All that happened was that the guts of the jackal fell out and then one of the farmers had to go out with an axe and finish it off. 

MAT	Fifteen miles away when he found him. 

ROB	Yeah. I thought it was one of those things that I don't want to watch a farmer finish off a jackal with an axe but I should watch this because this is going to help me somehow. 

LIZ	The things we learn about you every month.

MAT	Finish off a jackal with an axe in Namibia, if you please. 

ROB	And then I wished I hadn't watched it because I thought it might sort of help me somehow but it hasn't, it just gave me nightmares. 

LIZ	No wonder you're damaged. 

MAT	Is it a cultural thing like... 

ROB	What killing jackals with axes?

MAT	No shooting stag in Louisiana is it like, for instance, amongst me and my showbiz pals a blind person might want a legal right to cross dress?

LIZ	You can't compare shooting stag with lasers to putting on women's clothing?

MAT	Why not?

ROB	In Mat's world clearly you can.

LIZ	Yes clearly it is. 

ROB	What about shooting deer whilst wearing women's clothes. 

LIZ	Cross hares and facial hairs, what's going on?

MAT	I don't know of a state in the land that wouldn't permit that!

ROB	Is there a transvestite rifle club? If so... 

MAT	Not for blind people there isn't. 

ROB	Yeah it's just a step too far isn't it? 

MAT	I think so. 

ROB	I don't know. If I was completely blind, which I'm not so therefore I'm speaking from a position of complete ignorance. 

MAT	I'd like to point out, Rob, that you often mention how not completely blind you are. I like that. 

ROB	Because I can see you mocking me, not only can I hear you mocking me, I can see it. 

MAT	I thought you said he couldn't see it, Liz?

LIZ	But Mat just to say there is a little red light on your forehead at the moment. I don't know if that's from Rob or the producer I can't tell. 

ROB	They love it in the deep south it's a sportsman's paradise so I guess why shouldn't blind people go and shoot deer if they want to. 

LIZ	So is this just equality then, Rob? 

ROB	Well I presume so but for me the idea of shooting is you actually want to see the beast that you've just slaughtered fall to its death, even though it was horrible like the jackal. 

MAT	Is that bit....

ROB	If you're not even seeing that then all you're really getting is the sound of a bullet going off. 

LIZ	All you're really doing is pulling a trigger aren't you? 

MAT	Yeah you could say that. 

ROB	Well no, you're not even pulling the trigger I don't think.

LIZ	Really? 

ROB	No I think the sighted person is aligning it for you and then maybe you are allowed to shoot the trigger. 

LIZ	So essentially once the sighted person goes, "There's a deer over there, hold on I'll line it up... 

ROB	Shall I shoot it for you? 

LIZ	... and shoot it for you?" They just want shooting PAs. 

ROB	It's like having a butler. 

LIZ	Or butlers yeah. 

MAT	And they go away feeling like a real person. 

ROB	A deaf butler. 

LIZ	I told someone to shoot something for me.

ROB	And they did.

LIZ	I'm empowered. What's next month - blind people will be bus drivers? Oh what a silly old world we live in. 

MAT	It's a silly, silly world and very special. Special people do they need special dating sites, Rob? What's going on? 

ROB	I don't know, apparently so. This is a blog from The New York Times about the new glut I think is the... would that be the noun - glut is that right?

LIZ	It's a lovely word. 

MAT	It's a nice word. 

LIZ	Use it anyway. 

MAT	It's woody, it's a woody word isn't it? 

LIZ	Hm with cinnamon overtones. 

MAT	Moving on. 

ROB	Anyway, these dating websites they're all over the place. There's now apparently specific dating websites for HIV, paralysis, Parkinson's Disease - and get this - Herpes. Yes Herpes. 

MAT	Well it makes sense. It makes sense.

ROB	And there's one site called 'Dating for Disabled' it's got 12,000 members, several marriages, many long term relationships. And it's a funny one though isn't it because I've done a little bit of online dating in the last few months, I'm a single man again.

MAT	Now that you're very single.

ROB	And it's one of those things where do I actually say upfront, yeah alright I'm visually impaired.

MAT	But I'm not completely blind.

ROB	Yeah, thank you. Or do I just sort of wait until I see them and then wait until they notice and then tell them, because I feel that if I did that maybe I'd be sort of frauding them somehow.

LIZ	And what have you done? 

ROB	I've basically said nothing until it's sort of naturally come up in the conversation anyway. I certainly didn't say, "You might want to go out on a date with me, but you must be aware that I do have a disability" because I think doing that...

LIZ	Maybe speaking like that may be more of a problem. 

ROB	It's more of a sign of an insecure person who loathes himself, but that was the idea.

MAT	But when that moment happens in, presumably, the pub, when you come back from the loo have they gone?

ROB	No. I did do that to a girl once though. 

LIZ	No.

MAT	Oh why, Rob, why?

ROB	She went to the loo and I ran away. 

MAT	Why?

ROB	And this was in New York actually. 

LIZ	Because she said she was blind probably. 

MAT	"But I am totally blind" she says. 

LIZ	She was totally blind and that's offensive.

ROB	It was awful because the entire bar saw me walk out and the barman even shouted after me, "Hey man she really liked you." 

LIZ	No! 

ROB	Just as I was walking... 

MAT	That is horrible.

ROB	I was a bad man. Did some bad things in my youth.

MAT	I don't want to ask, but I have to - what did she do to make that happen? 

ROB	Oh I just found her incredibly clingy and she started talking about babies. 

MAT	Oh fair enough. 

ROB	That was why I...

LIZ	On the first date.

ROB	Yeah that's why I decided to leave. 

LIZ	Would you use a special dating site, Rob?

ROB	What for people with Albinism?

LIZ	Yeah.

ROB	Probably not, no I don't think so, again it's going back to what I've talked about before about the Albinism fellowship why would I want to go on a camping trip with a load of people just because they've got Albinism? Why would I want to date a girl... what makes me think... If there were a loads of other connections and loads of other things if we'd read each other profiles or emailed each other and we had loads of other stuff in common and I fancied her, then yeah for sure. But just going on a site where I'm limiting myself to only ever dating people with Albinism I think that's a really myopic way to lead your life. 

MAT	Playing devil's advocate, what's wrong with people with Albinism don't you want to be treated as a fully rounded hunky guy worthy of dateage - sic? And if so, and if you do they do, and what's wrong with them because what's wrong with them is wrong with you. 

ROB	No that's complete nonsense. Absolute twaddle. I don't understand why people would limit themselves to just going... I think maybe it's because people are a little bit insecure and they're a little bit scared that people who don't share their disability or at least have an understanding of disability are going to be somehow hostile or unsympathetic or even mock them for it and... 

LIZ	I guess you don't have to worry about the stuff you were talking about whether to declare or not to declare, I guess you don't have to do that on a say a dating site.

ROB	Certainly not, they already know.

LIZ	I remember using dating sites in the past and I have used disabled... 

MAT	Specialist.

LIZ	Specialist, yeah absolutely. 

ROB	But only, exclusively? 

LIZ	No both. I've used mainstream ones and disability specific ones and what was really funny is when you do the disability ones is if anybody who's not disabled approaches you that's the sort of... it's like... 

ROB	It's like a... 

LIZ	"Why are you on here, what are you after?" Automatically so in actual fact when I went on there... 

ROB	So it's almost like suspicious. 

LIZ	Yeah. 

ROB	You're not flattered at all. 

MAT	A stalker. 

LIZ	I think that would have been fine on all the other dating sites but when a non disabled person is hanging round the disability ones it just feels a bit like... 

ROB	It feels a bit weird. 

LIZ	It just felt a bit seedy that so I didn't like that.

MAT	Dave, devotee...

LIZ	Well you know... 

MAT	... 37.

LIZ	I don't think it's a good reflection on them or me but they were yeah... 

ROB	I think that's an awful indictment of how the insecurity issues that so many people with disabilities have - for what possible reason could a non disabled person want me. He's probably just a sick carer who got struck off the list. 

LIZ	But on most cases they were. 

ROB	How horrible when reality gets in the way of my sanctimonious pontificating, I really hate that when that happens. 

LIZ	Buy hey it all works itself out in the wash doesn't it? 

MAT	Hm it's a raging debate though. 

ROB	What about you, Mat, is there a thalidomide... well there's not enough thalidomide people is there to have a dating site.

LIZ	They know each other. It's called the AGM.

ROB	Leave me alone, Dave. 

MAT	No I've already done the two I wanted to so... and that was in 1987. 

LIZ	So you got your flid wings as such.

MAT	I've got my flid wings. 

LIZ	On that note, Rob, good to see you. 

ROB	Yeah not so good to see you but at least I'm getting paid. See you next month. 

LIZ	Until next time. 

ROB	Bye.

MAT	Thanks very much, Rob, not totally blind, Crossan. 

ROB	You're damn right. 

[Jingle: It's great working with Mat and Liz, they can say horrible things about disability and it's okay because they're disabled. People think they're being ironic but actually this show is just one big hate crime - hilarious if you think about it.]

MAT	Liz, who's the incredibly handsome guy over there? 

LIZ	Mike Oliver is with us here today. No not the disabled academic one, you're another one, Mike yeah? 

MIKE	Yeah apparently I'm a boxer as well on google. I did that incredibly egoistical thing where you google yourself. 

MAT	I've never done it. 

LIZ	How many pages did you get to before you decided to stop?

MIKE	I got to like the 16th which is quite far in I think for somebody, but yeah I'm a boxer and an academic like you said. And I'm also a musician which is me. 

MAT	Indeed and you're here to play some live music for us in a bit, and we're looking forward to it. But, first, tell us a bit about yourself - where you're from?

MIKE	Well basically I'm a musician, I'm from Swindon.

MAT	I'm so sorry.

MIKE	I know it's not brilliant is it?

MAT	No about being a musician. 

MIKE	And I do kind of folky acoustic music at the moment with the guy who's here today, Ollie. 

LIZ	Are you a musician fulltime or are you studying or working?

MIKE	I study at college but if somebody asks I'd be a musician even though I make no money whatsoever but I don't think anybody does at the moment. 

MAT	It's part of being a musician isn't it normally? 

MIKE	Yeah exactly. 

MAT	And when you write songs do you write the lyrics first or do you write the music or does Ollie write the music I mean what...?

MIKE	It really I mean it kind of really depends. We've done it both ways like sometimes he's like the kind of person who just sits and just plays and so if he's got... I'll just stop him sometimes and it'll be like, "What was that, that was really cool?" 

LIZ	And do you play anything as well? 

MIKE	Well I can kind of play base but because of the CP thing which I assume will get mentioned in a later question, it's inhibiting. 

LIZ	We were going to avoid it. We always avoid talking about people's... 

MAT	Oh no we don't do that. 

LIZ	Yeah absolutely. 

MAT	Do you play live?

MIKE	Yeah we... 

MAT	Whereabouts? 

MIKE	Well around Swindon we've had a few gigs. We've had one gig in Milton Keynes but basically that's what we're trying to do at the moment is break into the 'Swindon scene'. 

MAT	Well as everybody knows if you really want to break into the 'Swindon scene' you have to come on the Ouch disability podcast.

MIKE	Well yeah that's it every opportunity's an opportunity isn't it? Clichés work don't they?  

LIZ	But I love... I was reading that you actually had a band at school so this isn't your first... 

MAT	Oh yeah this is good. 

MIKE	Okay. So basically I'm only 18 so when I was 15 - long story short - I approached a guy who worked at the school and I was like, "Hey I want to be in a band." And so he went to the person who ran the unit for the people with disabilities at the school. So basically what happened is we did this band and we were called the PIs for the physically impaired. 

LIZ	I love it. 

MIKE	Which everybody finds really funny but it wasn't like a really deep thing, it was just like yeah. 

MAT	The PIs.

MIKE	I was like it doesn't matter we're just going to call ourselves that. 

LIZ	And what sort of music did you play, what songs? 

MAT	What were they called?

MIKE	What? 

MAT	The songs.

MIKE	Oh we did... they were like all really negative titles because I was going through a bit of a punk phase, like I grew up with lots of Blink 182 and stuff. 

MAT	But were they about disability like, "Aagghh I'm angry." 

MIKE	There was one called Go Away that was kind of a... 

LIZ	Every teenager writes a song called Go Away.

MIKE 	No but it was more specific than that. I mean nobody listened to my lyrics because I was just kind of shouting. But it was kind of like, "Don't patronise me, don't categorise me I'm just who I am".

MAT	And now apparently I have to tell you right here and now, Mike, that I was and sometimes still am a drummer. In the notes it said you clashed with the drummer. Could that have been because of your monstrously enlarged ego and not agreeing that all songs should speed up in the middle?

MIKE	Probably. It was more like this guy without - I mean I love him, we had our differences... 

MAT	They hate each other. 

LIZ	Of course. 

MIKE	This guy had never heard of Phil Collins obviously because he was like, "Well I'm a drummer I don't have to write anything." And I was like, "What? If you don't like what I write, you write something." He was like, "No I'm a drummer." And then we never got past that. And we were just two really big personalities and we just clashed. And then we had kind of a bassist who played base on a keyboard which is complicated anyway, but it just got round us finding a bassist basically. And he got caught in the middle of it all and then... Because they were, I should say as well, they were younger, they were like in Year 8 or something. 

MAT	Did it come to blows, Mike?

MIKE	Almost. 

MAT	Was it a crip fight at school? 

MIKE	Actually no, there was this guy in our band who was like he... 

LIZ	Was it like Timmy and Jimmy that's all I'm thinking so far?

MIKE	He couldn't really play anything so all he used to do was just play a tambourine and he was in the band, he had his place right? 

LIZ	Patronise... 

MAT	And you hear it all here, this is the music industry in one soliloquy my friend.

MIKE	So he was like, he goes, "Sorry I didn't mean to hit you I had a fit." Now I can tell the difference. 

MAT	This is a comedy sketch waiting to happen. Shall we do the quick questions? 

LIZ	Shall we move on with the quick questions? 

MAT	Yeah come on. 

LIZ	Are you ready, Mike? 

MIKE	Yeah, yeah. 

LIZ	Okay. Well in three words how would you sum up your school days? 

MIKE	Slow, lonely and pointless.

MAT	And bearing in mind we're on the BBC what's your favourite joke? 

MIKE	Oh God we're on the BBC aren't we? What do you call a guy who hangs around with musicians? A drummer.

LIZ	Coffee or fruit juice?

MIKE	Coffee.

MAT	Not funny. That was not funny. 

LIZ	Mat, it's not about you. 

MAT	Crisps or olives, Mike?

MIKE	Crisps.

LIZ	The first thing I'll do when I get home today is...?

MIKE	Brag about being on the BBC.

MAT	If I could be an animal I'd be...?

MIKE	A leopard. 

LIZ	If I could live in another country I'd choose...?

MIKE	America. 

MAT	TV or internet?

MIKE	Internet.

LIZ	Disabled persons' railcard or young persons' railcard?

MIKE	Young persons' railcard. 

MAT	Drummers are better than lead singers because...?

MIKE	They sing. 

MAT	No I was joking. That's the quick fire questions done.

LIZ	No. 

MAT	No?

LIZ	People who like Mike Oliver's music also like...?

MIKE	Frank Turner, Blues music, honesty.

LIZ	Ooh!

MAT	Honesty!

LIZ	It's quite deep.

MAT	Oh dear. Right then honest Mike Oliver.

LIZ	Or is honesty a band?

MAT	Isn't it an album by Beyonce? 

MIKE	Is it? 

MAT	No. 

MIKE	I don't listen to Beyonce so I will... 

MAT	Oh well that makes all of us. Okay. 

LIZ	And if we want to find out more, listen to your stuff where can listeners tune into?

MIKE	Well I've got a Reverbnations site which is just kind of it's moving on from MySpace. So it's Reverbnation/mikeolivermusic.

MAT	Great.

LIZ	You can get that on the Ouch website I'm sure. 

MAT	Stay there, Mike, we're just going to do a little bit of housekeeping and then we'll be back to hear you and Ollie play. 

LIZ	In the meantime thanks to the production team today: Damon Rose, Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and Chris Muir on the faders. We'll be back in early February. 

MAT	Now cue Mike, what are you going to play for us Mike?

MIKE	It's called Pay No Mind.

MAT	Until next time, listeners... 

MAT & LIZ	Goodbye!

[Playing music]