................................................................................ ON THE RECORD DICK SPRING INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 9.6.96
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Dick Spring, twenty-five hours to go to the start of the talks, as we speak, and still no ceasefire. Do you believe there's hope yet? DICK SPRING: Well, I believe that the option is there. I believe that there are compelling reasons why a ceasefire should be reinstated. It does look unlikely at this stage, but one should never give up hope in these-these situations. HUMPHRYS: But it's still not to late is it, from your point of view if the ceasefire were to be called at - I don't know - at five seconds to two tomorrow? SPRING: Well, we would prefer it, obviously, it was called before that, but I do think if the ceasefire is reinstated before the opening of the talks, that we should make every provision for Sinn Fein to be at the table tomorrow afternoon. HUMPHRYS: So that if it were five to two - I know that's stretching it a bit - but if it were five to two, you'd say let's open the door to them? SPRING: Well, yes I would. I believe we've spent many years trying to bring about talks which have all the Parties in Northern Ireland involved so that there'd be inclusive talks. And if there is a cessation of violence both Governments have made it clear that we would have Sinn Fein at the table. HUMPHRYS: Well, Mr Ancram didn't quite make that clear in this programme a few minutes ago. He suggested that there would have to be some sort of process of verification before you'd accept the ceasefire. SPRING: Well, I have-I don't like commenting on remarks I haven't heard made but what I would say is that I believe very strongly that it's the position of our government that if a cessation of violence is restored, that we should provide the opportunities for Sinn Fein to be at the table, and that of course is coupled with a statement from Mr Adams some weeks ago that Sinn Fein would sign up to the six Mitchell Principles without any problems. HUMPHRYS: Right. So all they would have to do is say-is for Sinn Fein to say-for the IRA to say the ceasefire is back, for Sinn Fein to say:We sign up to the Mitchell Principles, and you say:You can sit at the table? SPRING: I believe that that would be sufficient, and it would give us the momentum that we need to start and launch the all-Party talks, with all of the Parties at the table including Sinn Fein. HUMPHRYS: However, if they don't do what we have just said, if there is no ceasefire between now and two o'clock tomorrow the talks should go ahead without Sinn Fein. And, you have said they should do that, because no Party can have a veto on progress. But isn't the reality that there can be no progress without Sinn Fein there? SPRING: No, I don't accept that. My preference of course is that Sinn Fein would be there. If there is no ceasefire declared before tomorrow at two o'clock then the obvious will happen, they will not be there. But notwithstanding that, there is a great deal of work that can be done between the SDLP representing the Nationalist population and the Unionist Parties, and I believe we should set down to do that, starting at two o'clock tomorrow afternoon. HUMPHRYS: You Special Advisor, Fergus Finlay,has said that without Sinn Fein the talks aren't worth a penny candle. SPRING: Ultimately we need Sinn Fein at the table if we're going to solve the overall problem, including the decommissioning of weapons, and that's a fact of life. But, I also believe very strongly that we need to get momentum, we need to establish trust and confidence between the Constitutional Parties as they're presently defined. And, we should start that on the- Monday afternoon as it's now scheduled. HUMPHRYS: But the principal objective of these talks - and we've said it over and over again - is to bring about a lasting peace. How can you do that without Sinn Fein?. SPRING: Well we have, as I said John, there's a lot of trust and confidence and work to be done between the Constitutional Parties, between the Parties that will be represented there tomorrow. I believe we should establish momentum, and we should start on that work as we have now proposed to do. Hopefully, Sinn Fein can join with us, and if they're not there tomorrow I would hope that within a reasonably short of period of time that they can make the decisions that are necessary and be at the table representing their mandate. HUMPHRYS: And the minute they say: ceasefire, you say: Come along. So if they were to say that on Tuesday, if they were to say that on Tuesday week, you would say:Okay, come along? SPRING: Certainly. What we-The Governments have made it very clear over the last number of months that we're looking for a reinstatement of the ceasefire, and without any further preconditions or inhibitions then I believe Sinn Fein should be at the table. HUMPHRYS: You're not are you, beginning to run out of patience a little with Sinn Fein? SPRING: No, I'm not. We have put a great deal of work into this process since the Government was originally formed back in 1993, a great deal of work, a great deal of effort and a great deal of energy from all involved, and I think that what we need to do now is have the
determination between the two Governments and the Parties who are at the talks to see this through. It is the best opportunity we've had in the last twenty-five years to bring about a settlement in Northern Ireland, and I think we should leave no stone unturned to achieve that. HUMPHRYS: But it's precisely because you've put in all that effort that I ask the question, and suggest that perhaps you're getting a bit frustrated now? SPRING: No John, I'm not getting frustrated, I have to say to you, because we all knew from the start that this would be a long process. And, even starting tomorrow afternoon at the next phase it's going to take a considerable period of time before we bring about the agreement between the Parties in Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: You have, as you say, done a great deal to try to bring Sinn Fein into the process. In the course of that, though, you have alienated the Unionists. Does that worry you? SPRING: It..I Certainly, if I felt we had alienated the Unionists it would worry me because we've spent a great deal of time trying to open up discussion and dialogue with the Unionist Parties. It hasn't been as successful as we would have wished but I would hope that starting from tomorrow afternoon that we have the opportunity of building a relationship between the Unionist representatives and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. There is no reason in my opinion why that shouldn't happen. HUMPHRYS: But, you already have a problem here don't you, because David Trimble and Mr Taylor of the Ulster Unionists are saying: basically, we don't like Mitchell - we don't want him chairing the talks? SPRING: Well, I have difficulty understanding why anybody - anybody who wants to see progress made in Northern Ireland objecting to George Mitchell. George Mitchell has shown his capacity, his impartiality and his independence in the report he and his colleagues did on the decommissioning question. And, as many of the newspapers are saying today, he came through that enhancing his reputation, whereas most people would have failed. And I honestly and genuinely believe that over the next number of months, George Mitchell will show his capacity and prove to people who doubt him that he has the independence that is necessary to make a very substantial contribution to our talks. HUMPHRYS: Well, he hasn't proved it yet, has he? Mr Taylor said, I think, just this morning, that he hasn't proved that he is starting from an independent position. They regard him as an Irish-American, who's Party-pre. SPRING: George Mitchell is an Irish-American. I think, that's a fact of life but I don't see why anybody should object to that. We have been tremendously assisted - I say 'we', both Governments - and the Parties in Northern Ireland by the resources that have been made available to us from Washington over the last number of years. And, Washington, led by President Clinton, has lent out a hand of friendship to both the Nationalist and the Unionist communities in a very evenhanded way. And I'm sure that George Mitchell will do the same to both communities and that will be shown very clearly over the next couple of weeks. HUMPHRYS: Well, perhaps it will and perhaps it won't. If during the talks tomorrow, or indeed even the next few days, David Trimble and his colleagues say: no we will not accept Senator Mitchell, as the Chairman of the plenaries, what then happens as far as you're concerned? SPRING: John, we're into a hypothetical situation here. HUMPHRYS: Well, not very hypothetical, is it? SPRING: Well we are to an extent. Now, we should be going there tomorrow at two o'clock, bringing with us leadership, goodwill and determination to make these talks successful. And I will be saying that in my contributions when I get to speak at the opening of talks. We should all be setting out in a determined fashion, to work with the resources that are available, including what the resources of the two governments and, of course, the resources from the United States. And, George Mitchell, as I said, is coming here as an independent man, with a very high track record and a very good record of work and experience in international politics and he should be accepted on that basis. HUMPHRYS: But as far as you're concerned, what's the technical position? If the Unionists say: We've heard what the Senator has to say, we don't want him. Can they say..can they demand somebody else to chair the talks? SPRING: I think, that given it's taken us almost four years to get to this stage, I think, that that would be very unwise and a retrograde step. And, I would certainly hope and I would be quite optimistic that over the next number of days that George Mitchell can show these people that he has the capacity to carry out his functions. And, I understand that some positive noises have been emerging from the Unionist Parties that met him in the course of yesterday afternoon and I hope that will see us through tomorrow as well. HUMPHRYS: Well, not very positive noises this morning, as I say and I take your point that it might be unwise. But, do they have the power to say: we don't want the Senator? SPRING: No. Both Governments have put forward the formulation, the scenario for the opening of talks - that's very clear, that's very fixed and I have to say to you that I would be confident that that would see us through tomorrow. HUMPHRYS: Do you agree that the real talks, the substantive talks will not begin until there has been some agreement on decommissioning weapons. And, in that case, again, if you agree with that, you can't go anywhere without Sinn Fein, can you? SPRING: Well, we have set out and we've all accepted as far as I'm concerned - the British Government and the Irish Government have accepted very clearly - the Mitchell Report. I have always regretted the fact that when Mitchell was published, back in February, that it should have been put on the table straight away, the Parties should have been brought in, and we should have set about getting there signing up, so to speak and their agreement on the Mitchell Report. I believe the Mitchell Report will see us through these talks. We have a very clear formulation in
paragraphs Thirty-Four and Thirty-Five of the Report, in relation to dealing with decommissioning - and if we stick to what Mitchell has proposed, then I believe we can deal with political progress and we can deal with progress on decommissioning and there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to do that. HUMPHRYS: It's very hard to see how you can get anywhere on decommissioning if one of the Parties that holds most of the weapons is not at those talks? SPRING: John, that's a fact. I mean, I accept that and we want that Party at the talks and I would be hopeful that if they're not there tomorrow we can get them in the very near future. HUMPHRYS: The impression one has is that you are much more concerned at the absence of Sinn Fein than is the British Government - the potential absence of Sinn Fein I should say I suppose. SPRING: Well I don't know what leads you to that conclusion. I mean we all want all of the parties, we want the Loyalists, the small Loyalist Parties at the table, they're going to be at the table but they obviously will not deal with the decommissioning issue when there's nobody there to deal with reciprocal decommissioning on the Nationalist Republican side. So we need all the parties there to have the ultimate solution, the ultimate conclusions for an agreement but not withstanding the absence of Sinn Fein tomorrow there is no reason why we can't start the work of reconciliation between the Nationalist and Unionist populations in Northern Ireland. HUMPHRYS: You have appealed to Sinn Fein even at the late hour and I assume you are still appealing to them even at this late hour to come along to the talks. Is there anything else you and perhaps the British Government as well, can do to encourage them? SPRING: I do not believe that there is anything else that can be offered. We have carried out our work and the agreement we reached in London back on Thursday and the formulation that we have offered I believe is the best that can be achieved between the two governments. I also believe, very firmly, that it has everything that Sinn Fein should be looking for in terms of being at the talks on Monday or whenever they can make their own internal decision to do so. HUMPHRYS: So your message to Sinn Fein this morning is? SPRING: The message is that it's time to make the decision, it's time to be at the table, they've wanted to be at All Party talks, we have created the talks and the atmosphere for talks. Now it's time to get to the table. HUMPHRYS: You've said that the talks..there are serious problems. Do you believe at this stage that what your Prime Minister Mr Bruton told us in February was true, that is that holding the elections prior to these talks would jeopardise the whole process, pour petrol on the flames as he put it? SPRING: The elections have come and gone without any great difficulty. The elections have polarised Northern Ireland which was one of the worries that we had as the Taoiseach expressed at that time. They haven't told us anything new, other than perhaps the fact that Sinn Fein have increased their support on the basis that they want to get into a peace process, want to get into negotiations and that in itself is probably a good thing. But there is nothing particularly new that has emerged from the elections. We are now going into talks and we could have perhaps gone into those talks without the elections which were not of any great consequence. HUMPHRYS: Dick Spring, thanks very much for joining us. SPRING: Thank you. ...oooOooo...