................................................................................ ON THE RECORD SIR EDWARD HEATH INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 10.12.95
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Sir Edward Heath, there's nobody in British politics more enthusiastic about Europe than yourself. You took us in to Europe, after all. Isn't it likely that your ambitions for Britain in Europe would be achieved under a Blair government, rather than a Major government? SIR EDWARD HEATH: Well, I can't tell what a Blair government will do. What I said in the House last week was that for the first time, in the forty-five years existence of the Union, we have got a possibility of all three major Parties in the House of Commons agreeing on the policy. Well, now, this is the good fortune from which all the other Members have benefited right from the beginning. But, we've never had it. But, I hope now it can be brought about. HUMPHRYS: But, Labour seems more enthusiastic, doesn't it? HEATH: Well, I don't know about that. It remains to be seen what happens in government, doesn't it? But, as far as we're concerned, and I think there is a misunderstanding and it's due to the fact that all those of us who strongly support the European Union and Britain's part in it, don't want to interfere with what the Government is doing - the Government is supporting it - and so we don't speak out and have a row in the House of Commons. Whereas, I'm afraid, the sceptics never stop having a row. Perhaps, the time has come when we've got to stand up and speak out and say: well, I'm sorry it looks like a Party row but you can't just have a one-sided arrangement. HUMPHRYS: The reason I suggest that Labour seems more enthusiastic is, in part, the sorts of things that the relatively new Foreign Secretary, Mr Rifkind, says these days about being prepared to be isolated in Europe. And, it's almost a kind of boast, you know. We're tough guys and we're not going to be put upon by the other lot. HEATH: I'm afraid, it has made that impression. And, of course, no where more so than in the other countries of the Union. And, I hope, perhaps he can now abandon that. As I said again, what is the point of being isolated. There's no merit in isolation on its own and we should be much more influential in the Union, if we are taking part in all its activities and helping to influence it. As soon as you say we're going to be isolated, then, you have no influence, at all. HUMPHRYS: So, you think, Mr Rifkind's wrong to have taken that stance? HEATH: I do - yes. He knows my view and I hope now he can modify what he's saying. The other thing, of course, which is causing so much trouble - which he introduced - was the emphasis on a joint European Union, North American Free Trade area. Now, all that says to people in the Union is: ah, well, they're trying to ride both horses again. They won't make up their minds whether they're going to play their part in Europe because they're opting out, or whether they really want to be lined up with the Americans. Now, that's not his purpose but it's the conclusion which is drawn from this sort of proposal. And, the fact is of course, it's quite impractical. The Americans made absolutely plain they don't want a joint Atlantic free trade area. They're having enough difficulty, at the moment, sorting out the free trade area which they created between Canada and the United States and Mexico. And, Mexico, of course, is a frightful problem for them and so it's quite unrealistic to do that. HUMPHRYS: And, something else that we see Mr Rifkind and, perhaps, Mr Major, contemplating now is a White Paper, which would set out Britain's negotiating position before the IGC - the Inter Government Conference - Maastricht Two, as people are describing it. How do you react to that? HEATH: That would be fatal. I've taken part in many, many international negotiations and I had, after all, five years altogether negotiating in Europe. And, you cannot say beforehand this is what you're going to get before you start negotiating. And, if you say well it's what we ought to have and then you don't get it everybody turns on you and tears you to pieces. Our tradition in Parliament is that you can debate a negotiation before it starts and express your views of course, then Ministers know what you're thinking and saying. But, you don't expect the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary to answer and say: yes, this is what we're going to do. You have confidence in them when they go to the negotiation. When they come back, then, they have to put it to Parliament. If their judgment is proved to be wrong, and Parliament can't accept it, then, of course, the inevitable follows and the Minister resigns or the Government resigns. That's the way we do it in the British Parliament. HUMPHRYS: But, it's pretty clear isn't it that we're going to get this White Paper? HEATH: Well, what I hope the White Paper will do is the same thing that we did in 1970, which is to set out the various aspects which concern us and analyse the pros and cons, explain to people what it's all about. And, of course, nowhere is this more necessary than on the question of monetary union. That's in..shown very violently by the fact that the CBI have had a public opinion poll - a very wide one - which shows that industry wants a Single Currency. And, there was another one, earlier on in the year, which showed that 82% of industry wants a Single Currency. If you come to the people..or the man on the street, only thirty-three per cent want it. Now, what is the difference? The difference is because it hasn't been explained to people about and the good things. Industry recognises the good things about it but people haven't had a chance to consider that and that's what's required. HUMPHRYS: Mr Major appears not to recognise it either very much. He wants to delay it. What do you make of that? HEATH: Well, I'm afraid that that is a rather typical British attribute and it's regrettable. And, particularly, in the modern world, after all we started discussing the Channel Tunnel in 1802 and we finally got it in whatever we were, 1993. But we still haven't got a single fast track line from the Channel Tunnel up to London or to Edinburgh, we still haven't done that and when it came to decimalisation of the currency then we started discussing that in 1856 and then we finally got it in 1966 - a hundred and ten years. Well of course you have to examine these things carefully and think about them and work on them and..but this new world hasn't got time for that. The reason why the European Union has been so successful and why so many countries want to join it is that it started in 1940..1950 and it's achieved a very large part of its purpose. HUMPHRYS: But everything you've been saying in the last few minutes does rather suggest that the Major government is going in the direction you would rather it not go and in most of these senses the Blair comment's going the right way. HEATH: I don't think that's so. The real problem which faces John Major is that he has undoubtedly got a divided party and he naturally wants to keep it as united as he can until the next election. One can understand that. But my judgement is that we shall lose a lot of votes as a party if we appear to be anti-European. Again if you look at the public opinion polls, although they may not understand details of it, well over half the people of this country want us to remain in Europe, want us to remain in the European Union. If we are going to remain in it then we've got to be positive and help to make a success of it. HUMPHRYS: Given the possibility of a Labour Government could you see yourself supporting the..Mr Blair over the issues about which you..the European issues about which you feel strongly, even though the other side..your own side might want to oppose? HEATH: Oh I shall judge it all on its merits and I think my principles on Europe are now well known and what I want to achieve is also well known and if they are doing the right thing then of course they ought to be supported. In the same way as I've said ever since 1950 we are doing the right then when we ought to be supported by the Labour Party and not abandoned at times when the party switches from one side to the other. HUMPHRYS: So that from your point of view would be more important than following the party line? HEATH: On Europe yes. Undoubtedly. HUMPHRYS: So you are perhaps delivering a little message to Mr Major here this morning? HEATH: Well you know I do talk to him from time to time and he knows my views and those views are that there is no place for this country outside the European Union, the whole world has changed since the Second World War, we no longer have a great Empire and after '97 when Hong Kong is gone then we shall have no external territories. We can't compete with the great powers which are now arising and we've got to recognise this and become realistic. I heard the Secretary of Defence saying the other day of course all this is necessary because of our world wide obligations and powers. It's not the case any longer and if judgements are made on that basis then we shall get into great trouble. HUMPHRYS: Sir Edward Heath thank you very much. ...oooOooo...