............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 22.1.95 .............................................................................. JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Tony Blair is On The Record this week - his first in-depth interview since it was officially decreed that his honeymoon as Leader of the Labour Party has ended. I'll be talking to him about his struggle to build a new Labour Party in the face of opposition from the old one after the News read by Jennie Bond. NEWS HUMPHRYS: Most of the programme this week is taken up with an extended interview with Tony Blair. There are a lot of questions for him to answer - above all, perhaps, how does he justify his insistence that there is a NEW Labour Party when the OLD one is resolutely refusing to lie down. ******** HUMPHRYS: Until very recently Tony Blair could do no wrong. The Labour Leader with the Midas touch. Since the new year began he's been dogged with all sorts of difficulties and that's led commentators to conclude that not only is the honeymoon over, but that his leadership might actually be facing some problems. Nonsense, say his supporters. That's just the media at work and the Tories stoking the fires. But might it be more serious than that? Here's another interpretation. Mr Blair likes to talk about "new Labour". He has to persuade the electorate that it is a new Labour Party because they won't buy the old one. But the problem is that in truth there isn't a new Labour Party yet. Mr. Blair is still trying to build one and he's meeting much more opposition than has generally been recognised. What's more, it's coming not only from the old dinosaurs but from many in the mainstream of the party and without them, he's in trouble. So, when I spoke to Mr. Blair this morning I began by putting that to him: although he talks a great deal about new Labour, it's not there yet. TONY BLAIR: It does exist and I think the dividing lines in policy that we're making which distinguishes both from what I would call 'Old Left' and also from the new Right positions, are I think increasingly clear in industry and education and health and so forth, welfare particularly. But it is of course the case that in order to demonstrate the clarity of New Labour the vision that lies behind it, and that is one of the reasons why we're embarked upon this debate about changing our constitution. HUMPHRYS: So you accept that you have some way to go yet before you can say 'this is New Labour' it has arrived, it is here? BLAIR: I accept that there is a need to clarify what it is about, for the good of the country and for the good of the party, but it is there and it it's very clear and indeed you saw at the last Party Conference, the degree to which the Labour Party was embarking on new ground. I mean, let me just give you one example, in relation to industry policy it used to be a battle between old notions of state intervention and laissez- faire market dogma. Now the Conservatives are stuck in the latter position, their's is a market dogma position, they don't really believe in industrial policy, we do. We think it's essential that society works with industry to produce a stronger industrial base, so we set out policies for technology and infrastructure and education and training for economic regeneration, for ensuring that we're able as a country, to give ourselves the strong industrial base necessary for growth to be sustained, without these rises in interest rates, the moment recovery comes. Now that is what I would call New Labour, in the field of the labour market it's no longer about sort of collective power versus the employers, it is about empowering people at work so that industry and people are equipped for a new global market, again as opposed to the Conservative view which is that you simply leave everything to a small elite running matters. HUMPHRYS: But it is more than just clarification isn't it, this road towards the New Labour Party, there are things you still have to do? BLAIR: I think it is primarily a matter of definition and clarification, and I think it's really about stating, well what is the identity of the modern Labour Party, what is the left of centre about. You see, I start from the position...this is what my leadership is all about in the Labour Party, we haven't won the last four elections, we've lost them, that's point number one. Point number two, is that our 1992 vote was barely up to our 1979 position, which at the time was considered a watershed defeat for Labour. It is also the case that it's around twenty five years since we've really won about forty per cent of the vote. Now all over the world at the same time left of centre parties have been coming to terms with the enormous changes in the world, particularly the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and Communism. What is absolutely vital in my view, is that if Labour is to succeed it has to define clearly its identity, what it is for, not merely what it's against, not merely what the Conservatives, why the Conservatives are bad and discredited and have ruined the country, everybody knows that, the next election will be not really about the Conservatives and whether they're discredited, that is clear. The question will be whether people understand sufficiently the character and identity of today's Labour Party, that they trust us with government, and that is my purpose, that's what I've come to the leadership of the party to fulfil, and that's what the party I think understood when it elected me as leader of the party. HUMPHRYS: So there is more defining, to use your word, there's more defining to do and the things that are left to define and to clear up are very difficult things for you and one of those is, you've acknowledged is Clause Four. Now it's being said that if you don't get the changes to Clause Four that you want, your job is on the line. BLAIR: I've made it absolutely clear how essential and important I think it is but this is a debate in which I want the whole Party engaged and are not threatening anyone about the result. What I want is for people to come willingly to this position because you see, it is in fact, what most people in the Labour Party believe. If you look at this debate about Clause Four and this is why it was so important to have it, that as it's progressing people are saying, well of course, no, we don't believe that the sole Labour value is nationalising the means of production, distribution in exchange, we don't believe that at all but why is it necessary to do it. That's the real question people are asking. There are very, very few people out there defending what is in Clause Four. Now the reason why it's so important is because if the defining values of the Labour Party are what can bring us to victory and also ensure that we understand what our purpose in government is going to be, then they should be there in our constitution, so that everyone can see them, so that people know this is what the Labour Party stands for and yet our essential values, the belief in social justice and solidarity, the belief in partnership and co-operation, equality, democracy, these are values that aren't presently in our constitution at all. The sole defining goal for the Labour Party if you like, is defined in terms of a very old fashioned view, written in 1918, when the world was entirely different of nationalisation. Now it seems to me so essential therefore, that if we are to be clear and define clearly where the Labour Party stands today, we do it in terms of the values and principles we believe because that's what the country out there also wants. HUMPHRYS: So if they don't go along with you, as you put it, then your job won't be on the line? BLAIR: As I say, I'm not getting in the business of threatening the Party and saying well it's all about my position, I don't want that. What I.. HUMPHRYS: But your position's made difficult if they don't go along with you isn't it? BLAIR: I've said how vitally important I think it is and you don't embark upon a change as serious as this unless you're well aware of all the consequences and in a sense this is the most difficult change that we've done. I mean, as a political party.... HUMPHRYS: You haven't done it yet. The ...you're embarked upon doing. BLAIR: That we're embarked upon doing but as a political party, after 1979, in my view the Party had to change. We took a wrong turning then. Between '79 and '83, when I may say many of those who are opposing the change now were actually in charge of the Party, we took a severe wrong turning, we ended up with our worst electoral defeat in the Party's history in 1983. Now after that time, we underwent a series of changes. We first of all decided we had to deal with militant and extremists groups in the Labour Party. Neil Kinnock did that with enormous courage, he embarked upon the policy review that allowed us to update and modernise our policy, then John Smith put through one member, one vote which democratised our Party, gave us a better relationship between collective and individual power. Now what I'm saying is that if we want to complete that process of change, if we want to be a modern, progressive, left of centre Party, facing the twenty first century, not looking forty, fifty, sixty, seventy years backwards but facing the twenty first century, then
we should have in our constitution what we actually believe. Because the moment we have that, the moment we're able to say to people, this is what we believe because it is what we believe then you derive enomous strength from that and I think I've said on your programme before that I think the first task of the Party is to construct what I've called its ideological compass. What are the things that direct you as a political party, now it's not Clause Four in its present form that directs us. Nobody I know joins the Labour Party because they believe in nationalising the means of product and distribution of the exchange, I mean, the reason why more people are joining the Labour Party today than ever before, we've had the largest increase in membership in our Party since the early Sixties, is because of those beliefs in social justice, the idea of a strong and fair and just society is necessary to back up the individual. HUMPHRYS: If you don't get those changes, the Labour Party is going to become a pressure group, that's your worry, merely a pressure group. BLAIR: Well I think that it is..it is a choice
of destiny for this Party, it's a choice of destiny. We either become that vibrant left of centre party, looking forward, addressing the real needs of this country or we will remain where we have been for fifteen years, essentially a pressure goup, exerting influence on a Conservative Government but not governing ourselves. Now this Conservative Government has done too much damage to our country. I have seen too many appalling things happen from the Poll Tax through to the breaking up of the National Health Service through
to two of the worst recessions this country has ever faced but the people of this country will back the Labour Party only if they are clear that it is New Labour, looking forward, addressing their needs in the language of the Twenty First Century. HUMPHRYS: And if you don't get those changes on Clause Four, they won't regard you as a new Labour Party, they will continue to see you as a pressure group - that's what you're saying? BLAIR: I think that that is the risk and that is why you embark upon this cause and it is, in my view, essential for the Labour Party to be clear about where it stands and what is interesting about this debate is that the more it goes on, the more people are realising that in fact we've got nothing to fear from this, this is not something people should be frightened of. We're the Party that wants this country to change, well we've got to have the courage to change ourselves and to state it in terms that can't be misrepresented by our opponents. HUMPHRYS: But the reason that you are having difficulties getting it through or may have difficulties getting it through is that many in the mainstream of your Party are suspicious of you, they don't believe that in the real world you have any genuine enthusiasm for public ownership? BLAIR: No I don't think it's that I think that the Party wants to know that its core values remain intact, they want to know that in this process of change we're not ditching or dumping something of great value to us simply in order to get power. HUMPHRYS: And they doubt that at the moment? BLAIR: But that's never been what I've been about and the task of this great campaign that we are launching is to persuade the Party because I well know what the Tory desire is, the Tories want to split me off from the Labour Party, to say, oh well, Tony Blair may stand for one thing but this is not the Labour Party. They fear New Labour more than anything else because they know that they themselves are discredited, that they can't get back into power unless the scare people sufficiently about the Labour Party, now my view is that the Labour Party should say what it actually is, because this is what we are. If you look at these young people that are joining the Labour Party today and again we've had tens of thousands join the Labour Party - young people - inspired by the politics that we are offering joining the Labour Party, they wouldn't be doing that if they didn't think there was some value in today's Labour Party, now, why are they doing it, they
are doing it because they believe that this society will become too broken up, too fragmented, we're not thinking of ourselves as a country, as a society, as a community of people any more and they believe in that guiding principle. HUMPHRYS: It may well be that the Tories are trying to split you off from the mainstream of the Labour Party because clearly that would be very helpful to you, but they are getting plenty of help in that aren't they, they are getting plenty of help, let's look at what Bill Morris said yesterday about the Clause Four debate: "I have heard nothing, read nothing, seen nothing, which could remotely meet our requirements." BLAIR: Well that's a matter he is going to have to decide but I thought what was actually significant about Bill's speech is that in a sense he was saying, well social justice is the main Labour value, but he was saying well we haven't heard much about it, but in fact I think social justice is what we talk about the whole time. But secondly, in relation to ownership, the most that people like Bill are arguing about now is some of the utilities. I mean, nobody is actually saying in the Labour Party they want to nationalise vast chuncks of manufacturing industry, nobody is saying that, so what I am saying in a sense is the argument in a way when you come down and look at Clause Four, the argument's been won. Now what is necessary is to persuade people as to why this is necessary, why is it important to do it because a lot of people say to me, well, you know, Clause Four is never mentioned on the doorstep so why do we need to bother about it, well, the reason it's not mentioned on the doorstep is because we don't mention it and the reason we don't mention it is because that's not actually what we believe and what I am saying to people is you want a set of values that you do mention on the doorstep, that you are talking to people about, because these values are important. I mean, look at Britain, look at Britain, you have adivided country, you have massive social injustice, you have a few people at the very top that have taken all the benefits of the Tory rule and you've got the vast majority of people who have been betrayed by the Conservative Party so when we campaign on social justice, when we campaign on believing that partnership and co-operation are the way to get our industry and economy moving again, then these are things that have enormous resonance there amongst the British public and so it's..you know this is far more than simply changing an internal wording within the Labour Party constitution, it's actually about reaching out to the people of this country and making the Labour Party what itis today - the mainstream majority party, the people's party. HUMPHRYS: You say it's only the utilities that people like Bill Morris are now worried about but the fact is you're not giving them what they want on the utilities, and I can tell you what he wants on the utilities, he wants a seprate policy document, you said so this morning, listing the industries that a Labour Government wants back in public ownership. Are you prepared to give them that? BLAIR: Yes, but what I am saying to you, I mean I'll come to that is a moment, what I am saying to you is that what is fascinating is that it has been conceded if you like, that the Clause Four
definition of what we believe about public ownership is no longer accurate. The most that people are actually saying now, and this is what the Labour Party believes, is..... HUMPHRYS: ......the entirety of Clause Four have they, I mean, you've said that may times yourself. BLAIR: Of course, but then that's why it is important to state what we actually do believe because if you are going to break through in this country and offer people the type of politics they want, the politics that is one of honesty and conviction, then for heaven's sake, let's state the convictions with honesty that we actually believe in. HUMPHRYS: Right so the document, the list. BLAIR: No, we're going to decide our policy in the way that we have traditionally decided it and, for example, people say well the water industry has been privatised, it's wholly wrong that it should be
privatised, I agree with that. It's wrong that the water industry should have been privatised, in my view it's absolute insanity that we've privatised the electricity grid, I mean, there's bad enough difficulties out of privatising the power stations but to privatise the grid is foolish. But what have the Government done with these privatisations, they have privatised the industries, be it water or electricity or gas and they've taken the money and they've sold it off. HUMPHRYS: So you think that's dreadful but you're not prepared to make any commitment..commitment, I emphasise the word, to bring any of these industries back into public ownership and that is why the mainstream of your party is suspicious. BLAIR: No I really don't agree with that at all, I think more people understand that it would be utter folly for us to promise to spend billions of pounds re-nationalising the water industry. I mean, if you could do it easily, then it could be done, but it can't be done easily because the Government has spent the money and what I am saying to you is that in a sense look you can debate this policy or that policy, but there are Conservative voters who probably believe that water should be publicly owned, that's not the dividing line between ourselves and the Conservatives, the dividing line is..certainly a dividing line between ourselves and the Conservative Government but if you look at the basic principles of the Labour Party they are to do with its values and the issue of ownership in the end is, as John Smith said, he once said that the issue of ownership was largely irrelevant he said, it's simply a means towards an end and what I am saying to people is, yes, of course we should state what we actually believe about public ownership, but one, let us state that and not have the words in the Clause at the present, which can be mis-represented about public ownership and secondly, and much more importantly, the centre piece of the new Clause Four should be our basic belief in the values that underpin the Labour Party. Which are not values about ownership, but are to do with the nature of society. HUMPHRYS: Belief means nothing, without commitment, without very clear intention, and that's the problem that you face, people doubt your commitment and many people in the Labour Party, the mainstream of the Labour Party, doubt your commitment, they doubt your intentions. BLAIR: Now hang on a minute, when you say the mainstream of the Labour Party doubt my commitment or intention, I mean I was elected as leader of the Labour Party by a very large majority. Now nobody elected me John, not realising that I was someone who believed the Labour Party should be modernised. HUMPHRYS: A lot of things have happened since then.. BLAIR: Sure, lots of things do happen, but I don't think people doubt that commitment at all, I think people understand entirely why it is right to say that of course these industries should not have been privatised, but the government's privatised them and spent the money, and so people are not actually..I notice no pressure from anywhere for people to say well you've got to buy all these water shares back. Supposing you were sitting round a Cabinet table in a Labour Government and you've got all the various pressing needs of expenditure upon you, on health and education and transport and crime, and so forth. Now you tell me how many hands are going to go up for saying, Oh no, we want the billions spent on the water, they're not going to say. That doesn't mean to say that you don't believe these utilities should be publicly owned but we're not in a position to be able to deliver that because of the way the government's privatised them. And the important thing is actually to stop, for example railways privatisation, that is going to hugely damage the railway system in this country, give us higher prices, fewer routes and enable many people to make a lot of money at the very top of this industry, but disable a lot of passengers from getting the service they want. HUMPHRYS: Right, well let's take railways then as an example, as an illustration of why I suggest to you that there is this suspicion of your commitment, of your intention. BLAIR: Well I tell you I don't believe there is this great suspicion, what people are looking for is reassurance, that we don't believe that public ownership has no role. HUMPHRYS: Use the word reassurance if you like, then. BLAIR: Yes but let me just point this out to you before we get on to it, because you believe that not everything should be in public ownership, it doesn't follow from that that you believe that public ownership's got no role, and indeed at my Party Conference speech I specifically said that of course it still had a role, and that rail and the Post Office were an example of things that should be in public ownership... HUMPHRYS: Absolutely.. BLAIR: ...but it's not the centrepiece of what the Labour Party believes. HUMPHRYS: OK, but let's explore that role then. You say the railways ought to be in public ownership. BLAIR: Yes, now you're getting into policy, not belief, policy. HUMPHRYS: Well alright ... BLAIR: It's very important to distinguish that. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but there is no point at all in having a very clear set of beliefs if your policy doesn't support those beliefs. BLAIR: Of course that is entirely true, but there will be beliefs that you have that for various reasons cannot be put into practice in full if there are practical difficulties standing in the way. HUMPHRYS: You may believe that everybody should be given a thousand pounds a week for the rest of their lives and that your policy won't allow that to happen, of course everybody understands that, but now let's look at something.... BLAIR: That's a very important caveat, what you're about to put to me. HUMPHRYS: Of course it is but let's look at something where something practically can be done, they believe, and that's...you raise it yourself, the railways. Now, a commitment was given, a total commitment was given by John Prescott at an earlier Party conference, by Frank Dobson, to re-nationalise the railways, re-nationalise the railways, bring them back into public ownership. You, subsequently, flatly refused to give that commitment. BLAIR: No, hang on a minute... HUMPHRYS: Well... BLAIR: No, look it is a very simple difference, it is the difference, first of all we're fighting rail privatisation. HUMPHRYS: Yes I understand that. BLAIR: We're doing this because we believe it to be wrong. HUMPHRYS: Of course. BLAIR: OK. So, and to my mind the vast majority of the people out there in the country aren't actually asking themselves what the Labour Party's going to do when it comes to power, what they're asking themselves is why are the government privatising it. HUMPHRYS: They also want to know what's going to happen if it is privatised, of course they do. BLAIR: Of course they do, but their primary aim is to stop it being privatised and they're wondering why the government's proceeding with it. Now, when then privatisation takes place, our commitment is to a publicly owned, publicly accountable railway system, I said that myself at the Party Conference, it's not merely Frank Dobson or John Prescott, I said it. HUMPHRYS: Why was it necessary to set up the working party, because it clearly... BLAIR: For a very simple and obvious reason, which I suggest, any sensible member of the public would understand, which is that when the government then embark on a process of privatisation, we don't know what it's going to do, we don't know what the financial implications of that are going to be, we don't know what the state is going to be of the franchises, and so forth, and therefore it is important that we review how we are going to meet that commitment, and the guarantees that I'm not prepared to give is to say that we're going to, we can return everything to the status quo irrespective of what happens, you've got to review what is happening in the light of what has actually taken place once the government have privatised it.. if they privatise it, but what we should be doing is fighting the privatisation. HUMPHRYS: Well let me be clear about the intention, the remit of that working party then. Was it set up to find ways of re-nationalising the railways, given that when you come into power they have
been privatised. BLAIR: It is to bring it back as a proper publicly owned, publicly accountable railway system, that is the purpose of doing it. HUMPHRYS: The answer to that question then is yes, that committee was set up to find a way of re-nationalising ... BLAIR: Yeah, but when you say re-nationalising it, that does not mean necessarily returning everything to the way it's been because it may not be possible to do that, but we want a publicly owned, publicly accountable railway system. Now I think it's, with all due respect, I think it is absolutely clear and all the... HUMPHRYS: I don't think it is clear to lots of people, you see... BLAIR: I think it is entirely clear that the purpose of this review is to see how that can be done. HUMPHRYS: I don't think it's clear to many people in your party because after the committee was set up we had different signals coming out on the Sunday, we had something, we had John Prescott implying that it wouldn't be re-nationalised, that wasn't the remit of the committee. Then the following day or the day after we had Mr. Meacher saying that perhaps they would, I mean there is confusion out there. BLAIR: There is no confusion at all, we oppose railway privatisation, we think it wrong, why because we believe that the railways should be a publicly owned, publicly accountable system, we think it's wrong that it's been broken up and sold off, we think it's going to do enormous damage to the railways. HUMPHRYS: And you're saying, categorically this morning ... BLAIR: The purpose of this review group is to work out how we achieve that aim. HUMPHRYS: Not whether it be achieved? BLAIR: No, how we achieve it, that is the purpose of what this review group is about and of course it has to take account of what the government has actually done, because it is not possible to develop policy in a vacuum, we need to know how far they've gone, what they've done, what the financial implications may be, and that will all be decided at the appropriate time, but the main task at the moment, and I suggest to you what the vast majority of people wish us to concentrate upon is fighting that railway privatisation. Now, if I can go back to Clause Four for a minute. I think the vast majority of people understand exactly what we are saying about the railways, why it is important, why we successfully fought off the privatisation in the Post Office and what they want to see in the new Clause Four is what we actually believe about the economy and ownership and much more important than that, they want to see the commitment to the basic principles of social justice and solidarity and so forth, which is what the Labour Party believes in and I don't find any problem with that, at all, in the vast majority of places in the Party. HUMPHRYS: But to be absolutely clear, to set all these uncertainties that you say don't exist, but I think they do, to rest. When a Labour government gets into power, it will find a way of bringing the railways back into public ownership. BLAIR: The purpose of the review group is to see how that can be done... HUMPHRYS: Exactly, fine.. BLAIR: It's to see how it can be done but but we've got to take account in doing that, of what actually happens. HUMPHRYS: Right, but that ought to satisfy Bill Morris. BLAIR: It's not a question of satisfying Bill Morris, it's a question of making it clear to the country that that is our clear intention, that is what we want to achieve. Now you said earlier that beliefs don't mean anything without clear intentions, that is our clear intention in relation to that industry and what is more, we have the support of the vast majority of Conservative voters as well as Labour voters but we are not in the business of spraying around guarantees and commitments until we've seen exactly what the government have done. HUMPHRYS: Right. But the commitment is that that is the intention. BLAIR: The commitment...the intention is to do that. We have to see how it can be done and with all due respect, I think that is clear and has been clear all the way through. What people have been asking us to do is to say, well irrespective of what the government does, then everything just goes back to square one. Well that's not possible to do that. We have to see how they precede. HUMPHRYS: But it is of course possible to pre-empt
the whole process isn't it? I mean, if you sat here this morning and said, look, you out there on the other side of the television cameras, if you buy any shares in the franchise companies or Railtrack or whatever it happens to be, I am telling you now, they're not going to be worth a row of beans when a Labour government comes into power because we're going to buy them all back and we're not going to give you any profit out of it. You'd kill the whole thing - stone dead. BLAIR: I don't think you'd kill the whole thing at all, I think what you do is you'd allow the Conservatives exactly what they want to do which is to run around saying that the issue is whether Labour is going to spend X hundred million or billion pounds buying rail shares back. What I'm saying to you is that any sensible person wants to stop this privatisation going forward. We already see the enormous damage that it's going to do and we must review what the Labour Party can do in line with its commitment as the matter proceeds and that is entirely sensible. I think it is clear and I think it will recommend itself to the vast majority of people, who don't want slogans from us, they want sensible thought through policy. HUMPHRYS: And what a lot of people want are commitments, now you're nervous about commitments at this stage, for reasons....bear with me, I'm not going back to railways, I'm talking about commitments on all other things, because after all Gordon Brown has made it clear time and again and you have that at this stage you're not making spending commitments. BLAIR: Exactly right. It's entirely sensible that we don't start making spending commitments before we know what the state of the economy is that we can inherit. It does not follow from that in any shape or form that we do not make commitments. HUMPHRYS: Alright. Well, I..let's...let's just use the words 'spending commitments' for the moment and let me pursue my theme that the mainstream of your Party have a degree of suspicion of your leadership because what they're afraid of is that you won't spend money, commit yourself to spending money that ought to be spent because that would mean higher taxes and you're very anxious to reassure people that taxes won't go up. BLAIR: Well I'm very anxious to tell people that the Conservatives have put their tax up by seven pence in the standard rate, that they've broken every single promise they've ever made on tax and in my view, it would be utter folly for the Labour Party to start trying to write its tax and spending plans now. I mean, this country has already been burdened by the Conservatives on tax, they're about to take away the relief for unemployed people who have trouble with their mortgages. They've in specific breach of two election promises, three election promises, raised VAT, raised national insurance and devalued mortgage tax relief. Now, in my view again, it is important for those messages to be put across in the country very, very clearly indeed and I won't have the Labour Party write its tax and spending plans until we are ready to do so and that means that when we have such spending plans or tax plans, they will be put honestly before the British people in the way the Conservatives have not done but we're not going to get into the business of writing that now. HUMPHRYS: But many people on the mainstream of your Party feel that you are a tax cutter by instinct, rather than a man who says, this needs to be done, we'll spend the money and find it somehow or other. BLAIR: It's not a question of being...look, it's not a question of being a tax cutter by instinct, I mean, you know, we've had enough from the Conservatives about their instinct for cutting taxes when they've actually been loading taxes on people and of course I want to make sure that the majority of people in this country, middle and lower income Britain, who've suffered. Do you realise the actual figures for the ten years, 1985 to 1995, under the Tory tax plans, and that is excluding the earlier rise in VAT that they did again in breach of a promise when they first came to power in '79, under that ten year period, about forty per cent of the population has lost, about another forty per cent has barely gained at all, another ten per cent have gained very little and all the gains have come in the top ten per cent. Now it seems to me that that is a plainly unfair situation, that is what the Conservatives have done. We approach these things on a different basis from them but you cannot divorce tax and spending plans from the overall state of the economy and the reason why they've put up tax and why we are spending more under the Tories is because we're spending on our unemployment, we're spending it on crime, we're spending it on welfare, we're spending it on social decay and that is the central change and what we've got to do as a political party is not play the Tory game, which is sort of one p. or one p. down, but to say what is actually happening to the British economy as a whole - Now that's the central question. HUMPHRYS: But you've got to look at it, haven't you, at least I'm trying to look at it from the point of view, again, of the mainstream member of the Labour Party, who sees you reluctant to make any commitments on spending, for reasons that you've just described, but who won't even say that the highest earners are likely to have to pay more under a Labour Government. Now they would say, but of course he ought say that if he's going to be a Labour Prime Minister. BLAIR: Yes. I think they actually understand very well why it is sensible of us to put our tax and spending plans forward at the appropriate time and we have pointed out the unfairness in the taxation system under the Conservatives but we've also said: one as I say, that the reason why they are taxing and spending more is to do with the failure in the economy and that is the heart of the economic argument, why are we when we are barely out of recovery, having to raise interest rates, why are we spending all this money on the consequences of economic failure and they also recognise, which is the second point, and this is I think a big change in the Labour Party, this is what I would say is part of New Labour if you like, that what a lot of people who are living in poverty require, is not a few extra pounds on benefit, they require work. They want to get a job, they want to get the dignity of being able to go out and work and that is what is so important about the Labour Party's proposals to reduce unemployment, to ensure that these people move from welfare to work, so it's not just about tax. HUMPHRYS: But you have you see, you say, I'm not going to give you my budget, of course and everybody understands that but you have in fact made one commitment on tax, quite specifically, you have said you're not going to impose VAT on private education. Now you can understand again, the suspicion of the mainstream member of your Party, can't you, because they say, look the one commitment he has made and that's going to protect the privileges of the rich. BLAIR: It was being suggested that the Labour Party had plans to impose VAT on private school fees - we don't. HUMPHRYS: And you knocked it down. BLAIR: We don't. HUMPHRYS: Yeah. BLAIR: So it's sensible to say that we didn't. HUMPHRYS: Absolutely, but you see you were prepared to make that commitment and from the point of view of the mainstream of the Labour Party it wasn't the kind of commitment they wanted to hear. BLAIR: I think most people understand that once the issue had been raised in that way it had to be determined and it was determined. HUMPHRYS: Right, well I've raised lots of issues with you over the last year or two years and you've not cleared those up for me, you've said you'll have to wait and see, but this thing you cleared up... BLAIR: The principles that govern the Labour Party approach are entirely clear now that is what we've argued for all the way through, it's the principles that informed our budget decisions, but you know the Conservatives before they came to power in 1979 they never issued tax and spending plans, indeed, I don't think they were ever asked to do so, you know, they never had...well I don't think they were in nearly the same way that the Labour Party is. What people understand is that of course it depends on the economic circumstances, what they want to know is the principles that govern it and I've said to you what is unfair is that the way the rewards have been distributed in the way that they have over the past fifteen years, what is wrong is the poverty and social injustice that is there and we put forward specific programmes in each of these areas, specific programmes for homelessness, for poverty, for reducing unemployment and that is what the Party wants to know from me. When you keep putting to me, you know, the mainstream of the Party are very worried about this, I think the mainstream of the Party know very very well why it is sensible to put forward tax and spending plans at the appropriate moment. HUMPHRYS: All right, but let's give you another
thing that I suspect the mainstream of the Labour Party is concerned about and that is that you know and I know... BLAIR: You are very worried about the mainstream of the Labour Party, this is the Party that elected me by you know, a massive majority. HUMPHRYS: Quite so but that was a little while ago and things move on as you say... BLAIR: But the idea that they didn't know the direction of which I thought the Labour Party should move, I said all this about tax and spending before the leadership campaign even began, indeed, I think wehad about twenty minutes in this very studio about it. HUMPHRYS: We certainly did. BLAIR: Right so, you know, the idea that the
mainstream of the Party is sort of desperately worried because I am not publishing sort of shadow budgets, I don't think they are, I think they'd be a darn sight more worried if I was. HUMPHRYS: What they didn't know then of course, perhaps didn't know, perhaps didn't fully appreciate was your attitude towards education, now something has happened quite specifically since you last.... BLAIR: Yes again we went around that course... HUMPHRYS: We did, we did... BLAIR: We went around that course in a great deal of..in a great deal of detail but I think, I'll tell you again what is important in education and you see remember what the Conservative strategy is, this is the Conservative strategy in the first few weeks of this year, what they want to do is to close down all the policy areas that they have, that's why they've hoisted the white flag to their own Euro rebels, I mean the most extraordinary sort of scene where they are chasing after these Euro rebels and welcoming them back into the Party for even when they are issuing their separate manifestos. In education they want to just close it down, say look, you know, it's all ....and what they want to do is open up the Labour Party and say, let's all focus as if the Labour Party were in Government and argue about what the Labour Party is going to do about various things the Conservatives have done. Now, on education, what is vital is that we understand that the message that the country wants to hear and what we really believe is about raising educational standards... HUMPHRYS: And of course everybody agrees that education standards ought to be raised but you make the point that..... BLAIR: The Government virtually has said now that's ..... HUMPHRYS: Let's assume I am talking about the
Labour Party. You say, quite rightly you sat in the studio and told me what you thought about Labour's Education Policy, what it ought to be, what they didn't know at that time was that you were going to send your own son to a grant maintained school, the London Oratory, now they say that of course he is entitled to send his son to whatever school he chooses because, after all, a parent must be concerned primarily about the welfare of his child, that's the first duty - but again it's sending a particular signal to the mainstream of your party and feeding that suspicion isn't it? BLAIR: Look I understand what some people in the Labour Party felt about that, my child is going to a State comprehensive school to which children from his school have traditionally gone and many of the church schools to which he is going have opted out for reasons that are actually nothig to do with local education authorities but to do with various questions raised with their own church, however, we can either spend the next two years arguing about structures or we can argue about how we raise standards, how we fight the cause that David Blunkett has raised - quite rightly in my view - of under-achievement in our schools. If you look at the Conservatives at the moment - what have they done? They've spent hundreds of millions of pounds fiddling around with the national curriculum and eventually had to go to where we told them to be in the first place. Now, their attitude is one of complacency and frankly you hear more from Gillian Shephard about my child going to a grant maintained school than you do about government education policy. Now, in my view what we have to do is to say: look what is wrong with our education system, what is wrong with the education system in this country today? And what is wrong with it is that children are not getting the education they need in a significant minority of schools. HUMPHRYS: And the concern is... BLAIR: Our belief therefore is that you have to raise the standards in those schools because it is not acceptable that children are being given an education that leads to under-achievement which is bad for them and bad for the country. HUMPHRYS: And their concern, again the mainstream concern, is that there has to be absolute equality of opportunity and that so long as grant maintained schools exist outside the power, the remit of the Local Education Authorities that is not going to happen. BLAIR: Well their concern about them, perfectly rightly, was that the funding was inequitable. HUMPHRYS: That wasn't the only concern... BLAIR: No, I'm about to give you the other concern, that was one concern, and the other concern is if grant maintained status was used to enforce the admissions policy that returned us to the bad old days where kids were divided up into successes and failures at aged eleven. Well we disagree with that very strongly. HUMPHRYS: But that's what happens at some schools, some grant maintained schools. BLAIR: Well if it does then it shouldn't happen at grant maintained schools. HUMPHRYS: You see the asumption is, the belief is that it happens at the school that your son is going to? BLAIR: No, that is not correct, that is not correct, the funding should be equitable and you should have an admissions policy that is based on the comprehensive principle. But what I'm saying to you is that in the end, of course you've got to then work out what is the right structure for proper public accountability for these schools. But the argument, the argument the Conservatives don't want to have is the argument about the schools that are not of sufficient standard, where we have got to raise the educational attainment at those schools, and I tell you that is why the country in the end, whatever fun the government make of, you know, that fact that my child will be going to a grant maintained school, in the end what the public want to hear is the sincerity of our belief in that cause about under achievement and what we're going to do about it. HUMPHRYS: And what the mainstream of the Labour Party wants to hear is that those grant maintained schools will be brought under the control of local education authorities, because... BLAIR: It's much more important than that, what they want to understand is that we are not going to allow schools to operate as if it was some two tier education system which is going to be unfair. HUMPHRYS: But you're not going to give them that commitment that you will not bring grant maintained schools under the control of local education authorities. BLAIR: We've said that the public interest should be proper local accountability, that should be represented by proper local accountability. HUMPHRYS: The ideal way to do that is to bring them back under the LEAs. BLAIR: We have begun a process, because we're not going to start waging war on any type of schools within our sector. We've begun a process of consultation with those schools, that I'm actually very optimistic about, but the important thing is to ensure that we don't have a two tier system in our schools, as we've got in our health service at the present time, and that we have children, who are not getting the education they need, have their standards raised. Now that in the end is what will determine the education argument in this country. HUMPHRYS: One way to deal with that is to bring those schools back under LEA control, you're not prepared to do that? BLAIR: John we have already said in a White Paper that was launched last July, that it's not a question of returning to the old system of control, we understand that... HUMPHRYS: Well many of your mainstream supporters believe that is the case. BLAIR: Well I'm sorry, that is wrong, what they believe... HUMPHRYS: Roy Hattersley believes it? BLAIR: Well he may believe that but I don't think that's what the vast majority of people in the Labour Party believe, because we've already had local management at schools, this greatly changed the situation. HUMPHRYS: Very different, local management is very different. BLAIR: I'm sorry, it is not very different, the reason why some of these grant maintained schools have opted out, and some
Have opted out because of the funding differential, and I've said why I think that's wrong. But the primary reason why some of them opted out was to do with the greater degree of independence over their own affairs, and as I've said to you many times, I think we are sympathetic towards that, local management of schools has already given them an enormous degree of control over their own budget, that's why no-one's suggesting actually you return it to the same system of local democratic control. HUMPHRYS: Well you say no one's suggesting.... BLAIR: Well some people may be, but I don't think that is the mainsteam view at all, and in any event, what I come back to say to you is look this is the choice for the party. Look, let's be quite clear about this, that's what the Tories want the Labour Party to spend the next two yers debating about, they want it to be debated so that they divide people up, the old Tory way, you divide people up and you pit the grant maintained schools against the schools that aren't grant maintained. HUMPHRYS: But many members of your party see it already. BLAIR: I don't think they see it in that way
they see that basic principles are being undermined if the funding is inequitable or if admissions policy is changing the nature of a particular school, and they think that is wrong and I agree with that. What they want to see us do however is to concentrate on the argument when we are strong and the government is weak, and that is in relation to the thirty/forty per cent of children that aren't getting the educational opportunities they need, and it would be a tragedy for this country if we ended up dancing to the tune of the Conservatives and spending our entire time as if the whole of education policy were about grant maintained schools, it isn't it's about standards and it's about how you raise the educational achievement of those that are under achieving. The Conservative view now is complacency and to attack the Labour Party we have a cause in education that I believe will get through to the vast majority.... HUMPHRYS: What I'm suggesting to you in this interview, is that yes of course the Conservatives are attacking the Labour Party, you'd expect them to, but I'm suggesting that you are yourself under attack from within the Labour Party for a number of reasons, we touched on three or four areas this morning where there is deep suspicion, where there is growing suspicion and what they're saying is, yes of course Tony Blair, we think is the best man to get us back into power, that's why we supported him in the first place, but we're growing increasingly worried that the party we will end up with is not the Labour Party that we joined. BLAIR: No that's wrong, that really is wrong, I mean if people have that view of where I will lead the Labour Party, that is wrong. But there is a sense of urgency about how I lead Labour and there is a sense of urgency, the pace has been considerable, I mean, even on occasions breathtaking I suppose. It is because I dislike what this Conservative Government are doing to our country and because I believe so passionately in a Labour Government that I am not prepared to take any risks with achieving it and because I know, I know that if the Party is only prepared to concentrate on where we really believe this country needs putting rght, we can win that election and we can win it and we can change this country for the better... HUMPHRYS: But the honeymoon is over isn't it? BLAIR: The type of well, you know, the honeymoon was always going to be over at some stage, the honeymoon was always going to be over, I mean, in the media and elsewhere but in the end I know the mission that the Labour Party has for this country. We've got to rebuild this
country as that strong, civic society backing up the individual, renew it economically, socially, politically, decentralising power, improving our industry, bringing unemployment down, fighting crime and doing it governed by this principle, that unless we are prepared to rebuild this country as a society and community of people, we can't achieve any of those aims. Now, I tell you that that requires change within my own Party or elsewhere then change will come, the modernisation process will go on and it will go on because the people of this country will only accept Labour if it is a vibrant modern Left of centre Party looking forward not back and that is what we shall deliver to them. HUMPHRYS: Tony Blair, thank you very much. BLAIR: Thank you. HUMPHRYS: That was Tony Blair talking to me a little earlier this morning. Next week we're doing something different, we're going to have our own referendum on whether Britain should be part of a single European currency. We'll have a studio audience and a live debate. See you then, bye bye.