................................................................................ ON THE RECORD PADDY ASHDOWN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 19.3.95 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Well Paddy Ashdown, down there in Yeovil, you used to say that the Liberal Democrats were going to replace Labour as the main party of opposition, you don't seem to have been saying that since Tony Blair took over. PADDY ASHDOWN MP: Well, John, take a look. I mean you really had to strain every muscle to put that case together. When you're talking about the south, and you have to go to Luton to make your case stack up, I think it's a pretty weak case. But let's see if we can take it straight on. First of all, who is the alternative to the Conservatives in the south of England, as your film showed very clearly at parliamentary level, at European level, at local government level, at all three - that's the Liberal Democrats. Labour in most of the counties of the south, like the one I'm sitting in, and going east from here as well as west, is at about eight or ten per cent, so they've been replaced. Who is the alternative to Labour? Where Labour governs in its rotten inner city boroughs of the north, in places like Liverpool, or Sheffield, or Newcastle Upon Tyne. It's the Liberal Democrats because the Conservatives have been wiped out. Britain has in the Liberal Democrats now the largest single, third party it has had for sixty years, measured at any level. Local government is our strongest, then Westminster, and after that European where we made the breakthrough last year. That's a fact of life. You know I have now seen five other national leaders, of other national parties, Conservative and Labour. Everyone that's come to power, the press have said to me, including you John, well that's the end, isn't it. Mr Major's such a nice man, there's no room for you. Mr Smith is such a moderate there's no room for you. And I've said patiently 'watch this space, the Liberal Democrats will continue to grow' and they have, and they will. In the May elections that are coming, steady growth, across the country, at the expense of Conservatives, of course more than Labour, but at the expense of Labour as well, and that's very easily explained. It's because this country wants a powerful third force in British politics, and we provide it. HUMPHRYS: Well, I don't know that anybody would argue with that, because we have watched that space and we have been right, because you still are the third party, and you show every sign of remaining the third party, and my question to you was, you used to say that you were going to replace Labour as the party of opposition - do you still believe that you are going to do that? ASHDOWN: Well, we've done that John. In the space that you said you haven't seen it happen... HUMPHRYS: You've done it in the south west, you have done it in some local councils, you haven't done it on a national basis. ASHDOWN: John, forgive, I mean even at the pace that you'd like to work in order to put me on the spot, it takes time. I've never believed in the politics of the single stride into the sunlit uplands of politics. We have been steadily building our base. Let me remind you that at this time in the last parliament, if you want to use opinion polls, we were standing at five per cent. At this time in the European elections in the last parliament we came fourth in every seat in Britain bar one. Labour beat us in every single seat in the south and south west - we came second in the European elections of this year. At this time in the last parliament I appeared on a programme, unless my memory serves me ill with you, to discuss a gallop poll which put Labour so far ahead in the mid term of the parliament, that I was going to lose Yeovil to the Labour Party, and you questioned me closely on that. In fact Labour got eight per cent. My caution to you is this - do not try, having failed to predict the last election from two days out, try and predict the next one from two years out, it's a waste of time. Watch which way parties are growing, and you'll see that over the last four years, from a five per cent base and fourth in European elections, we have been building steadily in most constituencies in Britain, so that we are now the challengers to the Conservative party in the south of Britain, as you've rightly shown, and the opposition to Labour in its rotten boroughs. HUMPHRYS: In the south west of Britain, I think perhaps we've showed there. But let me just pursue... ASHDOWN: You can go to Hampshire if you like. You went to Hampshire and I'm certainly prepared to discuss Hampshire with you, and that's a very powerful Liberal Democrat base in which I think in every seat save the Southampton inner city ones, we are the challengers to the Conservatives. HUMPHRYS: You have picked off some seats, and nobody is disputing that, but let me pursue this thought that you're not going to do it again next time, so, in other words, you would agree with Councillor Cooper from whom we heard in that film, but you're not going to do it next time, which takes you into the next century, doesn't it? You're happy with that, are you? ASHDOWN: There you go again, John. You see what you are trying to do is pretend you can predict what's going to happen next... HUMPHRYS: No, you raised that, I'm merely following up what you said. ASHDOWN: All I'm saying to you is that the party has been building its base. I have never predicted the next election, I've resisted it, and I think if I may say so, it's a mug's game. You failed to do so last time - you the press generically, and many of us politicians too, from two days out. Here you are two years ahead, and you're trying to predict the outcome of the next general election already. HUMPHRYS: I think we accurately predicted that you were going to remain the third party, and a pretty small win at that, and that's what we are discussing. ASHDOWN: You're wrong, you see, aren't you because as I said to you, we're now the largest single third party this country has had for sixty years. I don't know the outcome of the next election. I don't - I'm not even prepared to predict in detail, at least until nearer the time, the outcome of the May elections. I think this is a complete waste of time. What the public out there want to know is what we stand for and what we believe in, and what the Liberal Democrats believe in is a very, very clear set of policies where Labour is still fuzzy. What we believe in is being...is investing in education as the key first thing in this country, and we say where and by how much, and where the money comes from, while Labour says nothing. What we believe in is a clear commitment to invest for the long term in Britain's economy, we say how much and where in particular detail. What we believe in is taking the environment seriously, which Labour has ducked, and run away from. What we believe in is a clear policy on Europe because we're united on that where Labour is divided. We're the backbone of change in this country. And what people want to know is not whether or not John Humphrys sitting in the safety of a London studio looking at opinion polls can predict an election two years down the track because you can't, what they want to know is what you stand for, and I want the Liberal Democrats to look the public straight in the eye at the next election and tell them what is the truth about this country, and what has to be done to put us right. If we do that, and we do it successfully, the party will continue to grow. HUMPHRYS: I may have taken quite the wrong impression from what you've said and from what some of your supporters and councillors said in that film, but the impression you give in that answer, if I may say so, and in what you've been saying this morning, is that you are satisfied with being a party of local government and a regional party at that. ASHDOWN: Never, you're wrong. But I understand that politics grows, it doesn't happen overnight, of course it doesn't, I know you like to think of this event that makes wonderful news headlines for you, but politics and political parties grow and they grow steadily and that's the important thing that really matters and the Liberal Democrats are now in a position where it would have been inconceivable you'd have predicted we would be in at this time in the last parliament. I remember a senior political reporter, now sadly dead, said he'd eat his hat if we got more seats at the last election and this was two years before the last election than we had already and we did, we got more seats, so the question is not where are we, but which way are we going and we growing and growing fast, now that is not to say that Tony Blair is not a big event in politics, of course he is, any new leader, particularly one who like Mr. Blair and Mr. Major are in their own terms gifted and able political leaders, is a big event in politics, it changes the nature of politics it will also change the way that all political parties go about their business. HUMPHRYS: And your.... ASHDOWN: But the Liberal Democrats are growing, will continue to grow and that fact, although it will alter the terms of trade of politics in my judgement isn't going to alter that fact. HUMPHRYS: But your problem with Mr. Blair is that you really don't have an answer do you to what's known as the Blair effect, I mean, we heard your own councillor there, indeed, I think he is the leader of your own region - Chairman of your own region - saying we're not attacking Labour...there's not point in that.. ASHDOWN: Well of course there isn't any point in it John, the Labour Party in Philip Eavis' constituency and mine is at eight per cent. I have got a hundred councillors at every level in my constituency, a hundred councillors, a parish, town, district county, Labour has not one single seat. The opposition here isn't Labour, of course Philip Eavis isn't attacking Labour, they are nowhere to be seen, there's hardly, there's two councillors out of sixty on the county council who belong to Labour so what's the point of attacking Labour, they are not here. The enemy in this area, not the enemy but the opposition, the people we have to beat are the Tories, Labour doesn't exist here...you don't attack a vacuum do you. HUMPHRYS: And the fact is to hold on to your tactical voters, the people who used to support the Conservative Party and now are supporting you, you've actually got to be rather nice to the Labour Party haven't you, that's the truth of it. ASHDOWN: No, John, you miss the point... HUMPHRYS: No, I heard what you said. ASHDOWN: No in the South West.. HUMPHRYS: I am talking... ASHDOWN: In Somerset county council, in the whole of the South West .... Labour, apart from places like Southampton, Swindon and Exeter, the larger cities Plymouth, Labour does not exist, there's no earthly point in attacking the Labour Party. Our vote here will go up in direct proportion to our capacity now that we are not the Party of protest but the party of government, to govern effectively, now that's how we will be judged and in that sense I venture to say that if you want to look at the Labour Party don't look at the words on Clause Four, judge them by the same standards. How many voters will read the detail of Clause Four, Labour will be judged by its actions not by its words, and its actions where it is in government and places like Liverpool and Sheffield and many others are actions that I think throw a different light on Labour than the Clause Four debate which I am quite prepared to be judged by our actions, we now govern in more counties that the Conservatives Party - judge us by that. HUMPHRYS: But isn't the political reality that sooner or later you are going to have to come off your equi-distant fence to the extent that you are still on it as between Labour and the Conservative Party and say, look, Tony Blair is alright for the Labour Party, the Labour Party is going to be the next government, let's throw in our lot with them. ASHDOWN: John you are right to this extent, all the three political parties are going to have to decide their position in relation to the other but you can't do that until the other political parties have made up their mind where they stand, how can you define your position in relation to a vacuum and that's all the Labour Party is at present. Now Mr. Blair I anticipate will put flesh on the bones, I am sure he will do that.. HUMPHRYS: And when he is you'll join him. ASHDOWN: ...and just..certainly not, we're not the same party, I mean take a look at Clause Four, take a look at the preamble to our constitution and you'll see the well spring of our thought is totally different, if you agree across given areas of policy, we will be able to work together, just as we have with the Conservatives on Europe, but we are a totally independent, distinctive, powerful third force in British politics and that's how we'll stay. HUMPHRYS: Paddy Ashdown, thanks very much indeed. ...oooOooo...